Navigating Grief and Chronic Illness: Unpacking Emotions and Fostering Hope with Counselor Shawn Whitney

Speaker 1:
0:03

Welcome to Indobattery, where I share about my endometriosis and adenomyosis story and continue learning along the way. This podcast is not a substitute for professional medical advice or diagnosis, but a place to equip you with information and a sense of community, ensuring you never have to face this journey alone. Join me as I navigate the ups and downs and share stories of strength, resilience and hope. While navigating the world of endometriosis and adenomyosis, from personal experience to expert insights, I'm your host, elana, and this is Indobattery, charging our lives when endometriosis drains us. This episode is dedicated to my brother-in-law, tanner, when we lost last week to a three-year-long battle with cancer.

Speaker 1:
0:49

The thing about grief is that it's not linear, it's circular, it ebbs and flows, there's peaks and valleys and sometimes there's grand canyons when we don't want to feel. There's also joy and happiness in grief, and something that I didn't recognize before is that grief can reemerge in ways that we wouldn't expect. Beyond the impeccable timing of this episode and its recording, I've learned so much more about grief and what it looks like, not only in my own personal journey with my own chronic illness, but within the loss of what we thought would be. I hope this episode leaves you feeling seen, heard and maybe with just a little bit more hope. Welcome back to Indobattery.

Speaker 1:
1:35

Today is a day that I think everyone needs. Maybe it challenges you, maybe you're feeling seen, maybe you feel like you haven't processed what you have, and that's because we're talking about grief. So go ahead and grab your cup of coffee, your cup of tea and join the conversation that I'm having with Sean Whitney, who is a licensed counselor. And Sean, give us a little bit about your background and what you do, so that people get to know you a little.

Speaker 2:
2:02

Sure. First off, thanks so much for having me on the podcast.

Speaker 2:
2:06

It's a privilege to be able to join you and, I think, participate in this conversation Not easy, as you said, but important. So, as you said, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I also have specialties as a certified sex therapist and a medical family therapist and in those roles, both as a therapist and also an instructor in the Marriage and Family Therapy program at CSU, I'm working with families and students each and every day of my professional life, trying to identify how to address life's challenges. And one of life's challenges, as you said, is grief and loss, and we often talk about those kind of in concert with each other, because I think it's really hard to experience loss without grief and generally any form of grief has some element of loss to it?

Speaker 1:
3:04

Yeah, and I think what is challenging specifically with the endometriosis chronic illness community is that we don't always associate grief as part of our journey, because what I think we quintessentially think of as grief is when we lose someone, when we are grieving someone who may not be here. But the reality is that grief comes in all different forms and fashion and I think that sometimes what hinders healing is not processing grief, because we hold on to that so much, our body holds on to that so much, our mental state holds on to that so much. What are some differences between identifying those types of griefs chronic illness grief because we hear about the different stages of grief when it comes to losing someone, but we haven't really touched on what are the stages of grief when it comes to a chronic illness or accepting where we are in life and what life has handed us.

Speaker 2:
4:12

I don't want to minimize the loss of somebody, because that's significant, particularly by death. The finality of a loss is often really difficult for us to really deal with on a variety of levels, but I think there's something unique around grief as it relates to continuing life, and particularly life with a chronic illness. I call it complicated grief. There is some literature that uses that term, but there's not a lot of it out there. What it talks about is similar to post-traumatic stress, where we can have complex post-traumatic stress where?

Speaker 2:
4:52

there's a number of different things that pile up on top of each other to create a bit more of a challenge in our lives. I think in a similar fashion. That's complicated grief the person isn't gone, or I'm that person and I'm not gone. The issue isn't visible. You look fine, right?

Speaker 2:
5:17

There are a variety of ways in which complicated grief, I think, feels like double the grief and even double or triple the loss, in that we see a groundswell of support. When somebody passes, due to natural causes or otherwise, within an average of three to four weeks, all of that groundswell of support suddenly falls away. Most of the time when we lose somebody to death, there's a lot of support, a lot of thoughts, a lot of prayers, a lot of gifts, a lot of offers for help, and then it disappears. The thing about complicated grief is it continues, right that I'm still getting up the next day and dealing with the very thing that I might have grieved yesterday, or I refused to grieve yesterday because of whatever reason. I think that's what makes complicated grief so difficult for us is that it only compounds. It doesn't just go away.

Speaker 1:
6:28

I feel like that's true. And then you get the other complexity of that, which is trauma For a lot of us, with endometriosis, adenomyosis, pcos, really generally women's health, which is although we know endometriosis is not a reproductive issue women's health in general, which it largely affects cis women we really struggle with. Okay, we've had trauma, the care is not there that we need. We are not only dealing with the grief of what we wish we would have had, or this continues to hit us, but then we're dealing with the trauma of that. How do we differentiate between trauma and grief?

Speaker 2:
7:15

It's a lovely question, and it's one that that I have a lot of conversation with my staff at CSU who run our trauma center. So we we do a variety of things, including trauma assessments and even trauma treatment, and one of the things that we Continue to come back to is how do we differentiate what's actually going on for us in our lives? Because trauma is one of those things that impacts the entire person yeah, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, relationally, sexually, you name it right.

Speaker 2:
7:49

It impacts us on all levels, and and grief can as well, which makes that differentiation even much more difficult for us to make right, and so I I often will say it's something that we need to pay attention to and and maybe in time we'll get some clarity about what it actually is for us. But the truth, the matter is, our body experiences trauma and grief very similarly. There's not much differentiation that are that our mind, or that our body, or even our soul, for that matter, can make between what is grief and loss and what is trauma. Right, because they present very Similarly when you're addressing the two.

Speaker 1:
8:34

do you dissect that or do you treat it and Address it unilaterally?

Speaker 2:
8:41

Hmm, good question. I think it's more the latter than the former, although I will say that there is value in language. There is value in trying to identify and dissect, as you're talking about what, what is this thing that I'm experiencing, right? So it's so in that way, yes, we want to provide language and clarity for what it is that I'm dealing with in my life.

Speaker 2:
9:06

And Yet effective trauma treatment is also effective grief and loss treatment. It's acknowledging what is as Significant, and that's a really important piece, right, because culture, maybe even my partner, my parents, you name it somebody significant in my life, or Very strong themes and messages that I've been bombarded with in my life, tell me otherwise, oh, you'll get over it, or it's just a bad day. Tomorrow's coming and and so much of what we hear Minimizes our experience, and so so much of what treatment is about is Acknowledging its true significance and its true impact on us, and so, as we're dissecting or differentiating grief and trauma, while that's an important exercise, the more important one in my mind is what is the impact of this on you?

Speaker 1:
10:05

right and what is the continual impact? Absolutely because, if you're like me, the challenges of the reoccurring maybe diagnosis of hey, you had endometriosis, now you have adenomyosis, now your body is not gonna work the same. Oh, you have bowel issues, oh you have. So we're hearing all this stuff right and we have to continually work on our body, even after we've gotten proper treatment. Or maybe you aren't able to get proper treatment, or maybe you've lost the ability to have your own children, if you choose to and it's compounding right.

Speaker 1:
10:43

How do we process that Continuously? How do we continue to walk through that? Because, as you said, it's compounding and and I feel like sometimes a Lot of us have felt like when is enough enough? And we're trying to Get help and seek help, but then it keeps coming and it the grief gets worse, and then how do we differentiate between grief and depression, or are they the same? You know, it's I. This is where a lot of us Find some of the most challenging parts of this disease.

Speaker 2:
11:22

Yeah, and as I talked to you and other folks who Are unfortunately dealing with all that comes with this disease, the first thing I want to say, as I see you, and.

Speaker 2:
11:35

I hear you, when something is compounding, it doesn't seem possible to make it through, right, I barely made it through Sunday and now I've got to make it through Monday, right, and I don't laugh to make light of it. I laugh because there's some absurdity in it, right, there's. There's this way in which Whether it's self-imposed or other imposed messages of just keep going Distract us from doing what we need to be doing, which is acknowledging each and every moment not even every day, because it could be ten in a day Moments where I'm experiencing something significant, right, and I think so much about grief, loss, trauma Is taking the time to speak to what it is. Yeah, this is my third diagnosis in three months. That is a big deal, right, and even if people don't understand it or believe me, or or see the compounding or progressive nature of what I'm dealing with, it's what's happening for me.

Speaker 2:
12:53

Right and I have to acknowledge it, and people often will say to me around a variety of different chronic illnesses they're like but Sean, if I slow down and take the time to acknowledge that, I'm gonna get behind. I got to keep moving forward and my whole thing is yeah, I want you to move forward too, but the way forward is by pausing first. It's not by continuing to run or push or forge ahead. I get that we have to be in survival mode at times, I understand, but what I'm speaking to more is the importance of pausing and reflecting and acknowledging. This is hard, this is real. This is my experience of my body, of of my life that we have to do.

Speaker 1:
13:45

Yeah, how do we communicate that to people who don't believe us, because this is an invisible illness?

Speaker 2:
13:51

Yeah, without adding more to that Trauma plate that's the problem is because oftentimes we're adding more to that trauma plate as you put it, yeah when we try and convince someone of something that they aren't ready to accept or see Right.

Speaker 2:
14:10

So one of the things that folks tell me consistently is people just don't understand or people don't believe me, and that in and of itself is a grief, that in and of itself it can be traumatic, right? And so one of the things I really encourage folks to consider is you can't allow other people the power to change your story to fit their narrative.

Speaker 2:
14:39

Yeah Right, I get it Like if I'm a partner of someone who's suffering with an invisible disease, I want to tell them and myself you're okay, because I want to convince them and myself that that's the case. Right, right.

Speaker 1:
14:56

It's all about convincing people right, and I think that that's the challenge too is like we spend so much time trying to convince people that we aren't crazy, that we, that we are hurting, that we do have these pains that are invisible, and then we try to convince ourselves that it's not as bad as it really is, that we're not as crazy as we really people are telling us we are, or that that doctor who gas lit us was right or was wrong or indifferent or not piling that rock into our load, and that is so tricky.

Speaker 1:
15:37

And then you balance that with relationships. We've talked before at the support group about intimacy with relationships and how challenging that is with this disease, because it's painful and losing that connection. And when we talk about grief, when we talk about chronic illness, it's not just the trauma, it's also the grief of I can't give more to my partner. I can't be more to my children. I wanted these kids so bad and yet I can't manage to get out of bed or function as a normal parent. Or I wish that I could connect with my partner and I can't, and sometimes that's even emotionally.

Speaker 2:
16:26

Yes, I hear that.

Speaker 1:
16:27

I want to say you're not alone.

Speaker 2:
16:31

At all. You are not alone.

Speaker 1:
16:33

Right, and that pain is real, that grief is real, accepting that it is okay to grieve those things is okay and real.

Speaker 2:
16:44

Yes, and repeatedly right. So I can imagine in the moment how painful it is to not be able to get out of bed and be there in whatever capacity for the people that we love the most. But that in and of itself is a trauma. It is something we need to grieve. It is something that we need to take the time to acknowledge and address, and people often ask me well, just tell me how to do it so I can go and do it and then move on. And my response to that is I wish I had a magic potion. The reality is grief is circular, it's not linear. The reality is trauma is very similar in that way that if I can't do what I've so desperately wanted to be able to do parent partner, what have you? And I can't. In that moment it's really important for me to acknowledge what is true and seek self-compassion.

Speaker 2:
17:51

So as much as it's very common and I hear this a lot from folks. It's very common to say what I can't do or what I wish I could do for other people, and I do not want to minimize that in any way, however, but what I do want to say is I've got to learn how to extend that to myself in the form of grace and compassion, and the reason why is because the research is overwhelming to say that those who have been able to extend self-compassion to oneself do better. They do better intrapersonally with themselves, intrapersonally with others. Even some studies have shown how that's helped them physically, health-wise as well.

Speaker 2:
18:42

You'd ask that question earlier about what is grief and what is depression. We see depression rates decrease when self-compassion increases, and so there's a way in which we already feel like a burden, because all the things that are happening to us and the impact that that has on folks that are caring for and loving us yeah, that impacts real, and the reality is we still have to take care of ourselves so that we can increase that capacity in our good days to take care of others, but that our worth and our value isn't about caring for other people. It really comes from developing a practice and a discipline about caring for ourselves.

Speaker 1:
19:29

Yeah, that's so hard? Oh, of course it's so hard. We're all. Of course it is, and that is part of it. Is that we're in such survival mode? Yes, all the time, yeah, and it's really hard to give ourselves the grace to be okay, taking a nap and not being perfect.

Speaker 2:
19:51

Yes.

Speaker 1:
19:52

And not filling the shoes of many people. Yeah, I recently had a guest come on Ellie was talking about this. She said your body is giving you 100% of what it has, Honoring even if it's only what feels like 2%. Honoring that 2% is sometimes all we can do.

Speaker 2:
20:13

Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1:
20:16

And I'm like that's so true because I never realized how hard my body's working. But that isn't to say that I can't grieve what it can't do or what it's struggling to do Absolutely.

Speaker 2:
20:30

And I do think that there's healing when we acknowledge I may not be 100%, but I'm going to manage my 98% when I can and love myself within that I love that, because that's really the intersection that is really, I think, important for us to try and engage in fully meaning celebrating the whatever percent my body's capable of that day, the 100% that my body is capable of that day, and what it means to be kind, gentle and loving of myself too.

Speaker 1:
21:08

Right.

Speaker 2:
21:09

And I think that's easier quote-unquote when I feel like my body's operating close to 100% Right, and far more difficult when it feels like I'm operating shoot at a deficit or 10% Right. And yet that's the power of self compassion is understanding that I can grieve what is true and love myself too Right Simultaneously, that I am not lovable only if or only when or only because I did this thing Right. I am loved, valued, honored and cherished, regardless of what my body is doing that day.

Speaker 1:
21:55

Right. How do we get to that point, though, mentally, and not become bitter and not become angry, because the other part of this is anger. There's so many times I'm so angry at my body. There's so many times I'm so angry at the medical system. I'm so angry that for so long, I was dismissed by so many. Even those who love me have dismissed me or misunderstood me, or I trusted people and it was misinformation. Anger is a big part of this, yes, and that is part of grief, but how do we not sit in that space? How do we not sit on anger and allow healing to really take place? Because, again, this is continual, right, anger isn't just in this moment. Anger is every time we have to go to the physical therapists and they're saying I, you know, we got to work a little bit harder on this, or let's try this, or the muscles that are giving out when you're trying to work out, and you are so mad because you're so close to your personal record. How do you not get angry?

Speaker 2:
23:11

Well, so anger is inevitable, particularly when we're pushed and prodded and really kind of pulled to the brink. Many of the examples that you just gave, but many more as well. I like to think about anger similar to a tree, in that the trunk of the tree and what we see of the tree is the anger, but what we don't see are the emotions or the roots that are feeding it, and so it's really important for us to get below the surface and be curious about what are those feelings that are feeding or fueling my anger, because anger as an emotion is a very powerful, it's a very activating. Anger has changed human history.

Speaker 1:
24:01

Right.

Speaker 2:
24:02

Right, it is a very powerful emotion, but, interestingly enough, it's fed by a variety of feelings that we have in the moment, and so how to deal with anger is about seeking to understand and, dare I say, even have compassion for the feelings that are fueling it. So it might be that I'm having fear that my muscles are giving out during my workout. And then it's expressed as anger that I can't work out.

Speaker 1:
24:35

Right.

Speaker 2:
24:36

And so what does it mean for us to attend to the sorts of things that are kind of feeding my anger, so that then I can, quote unquote, deal with my anger in effective and productive ways, and that looks different for everyone. The other day I was talking to a woman who has a chronic illness. She has chronic fatigue syndrome. So a little bit different, but this kind of very similar.

Speaker 2:
25:04

I don't get a day off kind of scenario, right? And she said I just want to be done with my anger. And I said of course you do. I want you to too, right? And she said how do I do that? Very similar to the question you asked a second ago. And I said, well, part of it is understanding that your body is reacting to everything that's happening in your life. She's like, well, yeah, I'm very mindful of that. And I said okay, so then, beyond that, what's your typical way of dealing with that?

Speaker 2:
25:39

She's like by not dealing. And I said well then, that's an invitation for anger to take root and to grow in your life. And what we know about the progression of it is unchecked, it becomes resentment and then, unchecked, it becomes bitterness. And when we reach the bitterness stage, our heart, our soul, our mind, even our body is so hardened that stonewalling even those that are the closest to us, stonewalling even those that have our best interest in mind, is just automatic. And so how can we back up the train and recognize hey, I'm feeling angry today because what's going on for me, doing that body scan, as hesitantly as we might want to, or really trying to be mindful of, or even talk with somebody else about, what's going on for me at that time, so that I can address that thing in hopes that it doesn't cascade to bitterness?

Speaker 1:
26:42

Yeah, I also think talking to someone who's not going to feed the bitterness is key.

Speaker 2:
26:49

It is.

Speaker 1:
26:50

Because I think when you are in a chronic illness community it is really easy to pile on that anger and certainly there's justification for that anger.

Speaker 2:
27:02

No question.

Speaker 1:
27:03

There are moments I hear a lot of you talk about your anger, about the way that you were treated, and I have certainly felt that anger. But I want to caution all of us to be careful not to fuel the anger. Can we fuel change? Absolutely. Can it fuel our passion for change? Absolutely? Yes, but to sit in a space of anger and pile on the anger is not doing anyone any good.

Speaker 2:
27:28

No, even though it's justified. Absolutely, you have every right to feel angry.

Speaker 1:
27:34

Yeah.

Speaker 2:
27:36

It's a very inevitable and understandable, given this context experience for us.

Speaker 1:
27:40

Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 2:
27:43

I don't want to get away from that. I don't want the takeaway for all of you to be oh my gosh, I just can't be angry. I have to get ahead of it each and every time so that I don't succumb to it. That's not what we're saying. What we're saying is the inevitability of it is an opportunity for us to learn more about what's going on for us, right, and in so doing, it creates a chance, albeit small, albeit fleeting. It's a chance nonetheless, for us then to respond to it in an intentional way, right. What is anger communicating to me? About me, not to me about my partner or my parent, or my boss or my medical provider no, me. And in so doing, maybe, just maybe, I can find or pinpoint or get a sense of what it is that I'm needing in that moment.

Speaker 1:
28:38

Right.

Speaker 2:
28:39

And most people say, well, I don't know what I need, I just need to be done with all this, or I need life to be different than what it is, and I have a lot of compassion for that. Yeah, and yet, until we can figure out how to change the course of our lives, we have to take it one step at a time and say what is true and what do I need as a result of this truth.

Speaker 1:
28:58

Right, what are some ways to practice that I know for me? I've talked about this before. But accepting small things about myself that are hard, say, for instance, if someone's complimenting, to accept that compliment.

Speaker 2:
29:16

Yes.

Speaker 1:
29:17

If someone sees, you accept that and not look at others that are not seeing me or hearing me, or who have doubted me, who have criticized me. Allowing the voices of those who can sit in my corner be louder than those who want to sit outside and criticize.

Speaker 2:
29:35

Yes.

Speaker 1:
29:37

And that for me has been instrumental Good, but I know that that's not easy.

Speaker 2:
29:42

It isn't easy, and I think it often depends on the day right.

Speaker 1:
29:46

Absolutely.

Speaker 2:
29:47

We all have those days where it seemingly nothing is going to make a difference, right, nothing is going to change how I'm thinking, how I'm feeling, what my body is or isn't doing in that moment. And there's a lot of value in what you're talking about, because the literature is very compelling to say that we cannot underestimate the power of personal affirmations, and I'm not talking negative affirmations.

Speaker 2:
30:13

Which we're really good at, and even an oxymoron, as I say it out loud, but it's this idea of positive personal affirmations to say I am capable of love Shoot, I can name 10 people right now that I love, that I genuinely love and care about. I am capable of parenting. I showed up yesterday and went to the park with my kids. Right, there's a way in which the power of positive self affirmations cannot be overlooked. Now I tell people it has to be in the ballpark, and what I mean by that is it has to be somewhat realistic, right, right, as much as I'd love a full head of hair, I'm not going to have that. What I know you're shocked to hear that I am, but it's got to be something that's more kind of neutral to positive that I can wrap my head and heart around and respond to. For example, I can do that most days, or I am lovable.

Speaker 2:
31:23

Even if it's my mom, it still counts.

Speaker 2:
31:24

Your mom counts, or if it's even your cat or your dog, it counts, it, counts it counts and starting there, starting with and it may not even feel like low hanging fruit, but those things that we can, we can just kind of say, yeah, that's true. And then progressively go to places that maybe we didn't feel or don't in the present feel are true or acceptable about us, and understanding that as we build a different relationship with ourselves through those affirmations, we will, we will absolutely change the way that we show up in relationships outside of ourselves.

Speaker 1:
32:09

Absolutely.

Speaker 2:
32:10

Because I'm only as good in this relationship with you as my partner, as I perceive myself to be, and I have to say I'm just so happy that I have this appointment after failure, after failure that I'm responsible for, because you didn't sign up for this Well, I didn't either, right. But I can begin then to see myself in a more neutral, positive way. Then I look at that same relationship differently, going forward. I can look at it and say you know what? Yeah, we got thrown more curveballs than we thought we would ever have to deal with, and I deserve your love and you deserve mine. We were given more diagnoses than we'd ever want in a lifetime for the two of us, and that was just for me.

Speaker 1:
33:05

Yeah.

Speaker 2:
33:07

And we're still able to walk down the street holding hands, right. So would I want none of this to have happened to any of you? Absolutely no question, right. And yet, because it's a reality for so many, what can I do in my relationship with me, in the current state of my body, the current state of my mind and the current state of my heart, to love and accept myself more and more can be just a little bit more than yesterday, yeah, so that I can show up in the world and in my relationships differently. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
33:49

And I think, speaking of those relationships because we do have a lot of support people that listen Grief is just as big of a part for them in processing the grief, no question what are really healthy ways for them to be able to do that and yet still support, because resentment is a really real thing when you get piled on and I will say for myself, I feel guilty for piling these things on to my support people.

Speaker 2:
34:19

Of course you do.

Speaker 1:
34:19

Right, yeah, but adversely they. It's not the life that they chose, like you were talking about. How do they get to the point where support becomes a motion of love without resentment, and yet they're able to grieve what they thought they were going to get? Or maybe they walked into this kind of having an idea, sure, but at the same time didn't fully grasp or understand the reality of living in that relationship as a support person?

Speaker 2:
34:52

Yeah, well, then that makes two of you.

Speaker 1:
34:54

Right, exactly.

Speaker 2:
34:56

So I think, to that end it's a lovely question, and how I'd like to initially respond is saying that it's twofold. The first one is getting outside support.

Speaker 2:
35:07

So, just as you've talked just now about all the people that are in your support circle, that have supported you and continue to do so. Caregivers need the same thing, you know. Partners need the same thing. They need to be able to go to a place and a space or particular people and just unload, unfiltered. And, yes, that can be cathartic, but it can also be therapeutic, and the reason why it's therapeutic is because I'm not then paying attention to the impact that those words are having on my partner, as I'm sharing it directly with them. Okay, so I'm dumping it, I'm getting it out, which is super important, right, super important. And also, the flip side of that is being able to have, be it honesty, our, or regular check-ins with my partner who's suffering with this invisible disease, about what it's like to be on my side of that street. Right, and understanding that this isn't a personal attack. This isn't intended to make you feel more guilty than you already do.

Speaker 1:
36:12

Right.

Speaker 2:
36:14

It's just acknowledging that, because I love you, because I'm engaged in this relationship, because I desire to be a partner to you, I'm going to be impacted too. Mm-hmm. The partners that I'm more concerned about are those that go seemingly unaffected.

Speaker 1:
36:30

Yeah.

Speaker 2:
36:31

Right that they're like no, this is just their thing and I'm here to support them and it's gravy, no, no, that's called avoidance and that's not helpful. Yeah, and so it's going to get that support outside of your partner and then being very intentional as partners in a partner relationship, very intentional to be honest with each other about what's going on, because we both know what is Mm-hmm. But knowing what is and talking about what is are two very different things.

Speaker 2:
37:01

Right, right, absolutely, and that's often where a third party be it a therapist or a priest or a trusted other in your lives that you can sit down with and talk through it with, so that they can facilitate those stuck spaces not if, but when you get into them, mm-hmm Right and just encourage and remind you of what is true. A lot of the work that I do is just reminding people it is true to say and you love each other, that's why you're here, mm-hmm, that's right. We love each other and life sucks. I forgot about that. Yes, and both are true.

Speaker 1:
37:41

Yes, both are true. I don't like them all the time, but I still love you yes.

Speaker 2:
37:46

Yes.

Speaker 1:
37:47

It was interesting. I was talking to my daughter about that the other day. She goes Mom, what does it mean? Because we're listening to George Strait, mm-hmm and one of the songs is you know, I don't always like you, but I love you, or something I don't. But anyway, she was like what does that mean, mom? And I said, well, let me say it this way, do you always like being around me? No, I said, do you always love me? Yeah, okay. You just answered your question. Oh, yeah, okay, and it is that simple. Sometimes I love that. I'm like you don't have to like each other or like each other in that moment, but remembering the core of why you love each other and I would even say this is for those support people who are parents, who are just friends yes, thank you. You don't support people without loving them.

Speaker 2:
38:33

True.

Speaker 1:
38:34

Like there's no way you could do that and just kind of like them. I mean, you'd have to be a big person and there are those people You'd have to be Mother Teresa. But but at the core of that is is love for people and love for this person.

Speaker 2:
38:50

Yes.

Speaker 1:
38:51

And compassion. So ultimately, they're showing compassion and care, except that it compassion and care but also give it back. Yeah, I think that's something that both Elliot and I have learned.

Speaker 2:
39:07

And I've learned it with my kids.

Speaker 1:
39:09

I've learned that I need to show them compassion and care when I'm not when I'm capable of doing that. And sometimes I am not great and in return, when I'm not feeling great, they show that it's amazing what you can learn from young people.

Speaker 2:
39:23

Yes.

Speaker 1:
39:24

And the innocence of that.

Speaker 2:
39:26

Yeah Well, and I love your, your kind of, in the moment, spontaneous parenting, if you will, with your daughter. I mean, what a lovely response you gave in response to George, straight right Right. There's. There's a way in which like and love get very confused and, at the end of the day, that love is enduring with those that are significant people in our lives.

Speaker 2:
39:51

And so, while, like I say, similar to waves on a shore, that it comes and it goes right, love is enduring. Love is the ocean, maybe, like are the waves, and it's important to understand that, through the ups and downs of every day, be it full of grief or full of joy or somewhere in between, love remains, and that's what both partners and those who are struggling with chronic pain, chronic illness, chronic issues of my body going to do. What I want it to do today Questions Love still there, and so we need to go and get it. As partners, as I was talking about earlier, we need to make sure that we're cultivating in our relationship with each other, and we also then need to remind ourselves of what it means to love and accept ourselves, even if this is a version of me that I wouldn't have signed up for in the first place.

Speaker 1:
40:55

Yeah, and that is not easy. It is not easy, but it also is a lot easier when you surround yourself with the tools and the people that will fuel that better.

Speaker 2:
41:11

Great.

Speaker 1:
41:13

And part of that tool is seeking help and guidance outside of that, and there are resources out there that are there. There are resources out there that can help If you are in a state of grief and are feeling hopeless. There are resources. There's a helpline out there. There's a crisis line that you can call for those that are international. There are international aids as well. In a lot of places. A lot of people will do a tele counseling sessions, so they will do an online session. I think it's important to not walk in grief alone.

Speaker 2:
41:47

Agreed.

Speaker 1:
41:48

I think, as we continue to discover little bits of grief that are thrown our way each day, we have to be able to process that grief. I have processed a lot of grief within family matters losing close ones. I've processed grief within a chronic illness and the self loathing can be the death of you. But when you invite others into a space to bring joy and acceptance and compassion to you and you accept that, although not easy, it's easier for you to give it back.

Speaker 2:
42:32

Agreed.

Speaker 2:
42:33

You know, I agree with all of that and I appreciate your reflection because, full circle, grief and trauma are isolating and the very thing you're talking about is the value, the importance, dare I say, the necessity of community, and that can take on many forms.

Speaker 2:
42:51

That can take on having conversation with my daughter about a country music song, or it can be about my relationship or my friendships, or something on a larger scale, like my faith community. But at the end of the day, if we stay silent or we withhold what is true, what is true for us in grief and trauma, it only compounds. And you know, although, although focused more on shame and vulnerability, brené Brown's research is relevant in this moment as well to say that what she discovered to be true about shame, it thrives in secrecy and isolation. Yeah, right, same as true for grief and trauma. In fact, one of the most significant interventions that we can make in our lives is connection, and I would argue with ourselves first and foremost, but then with others, profoundly second, and that people just do better in life dealing with all of those curveballs that we've been talking about today with others yeah, not just on my own, right, right.

Speaker 1:
44:06

In recognizing you can't do it on your own.

Speaker 2:
44:08

Absolutely, you can't.

Speaker 1:
44:10

You cannot, we are not. We are not made that way. We are not made to do things on our own. I mean, I think we have to recognize things. We can't push everything off of us. Right Agreed, but we shouldn't be doing this on our own, no.

Speaker 2:
44:23

No.

Speaker 1:
44:24

No.

Speaker 2:
44:24

Even superheroes don't have all the skills.

Speaker 1:
44:30

I mean even when I try Right.

Speaker 2:
44:35

That's true, we all have our kryptonite and maybe what that is for us in the face of grief and trauma is isolation, and that, in order to be the superhero that we are capable of being, we need to reach out, not pull in.

Speaker 1:
44:55

Yeah, so well said. If you are one of those people that are seeking community, their communities online, their communities in your own community that are in person. Certainly, in the northern Colorado region we have started the Indo village community as well, and then it is a village that we live together and we do life together. It's important that you find those people, and I hope that this is a tool where you start to feel that ounce of community.

Speaker 1:
45:24

You feel seen and you feel heard, to be able to step outside of your little space, wherever that is, to continue finding your community around you, because we all need it. So, sean, thank you so much.

Speaker 2:
45:39

My pleasure.

Speaker 1:
45:40

This was amazing and so timely and I just appreciate you speaking words of life into so many people and what you're doing and it's so impactful and I just want to say thank you for taking that time to do that for this community, who is struggling often and doesn't feel heard. I really think that you have helped people feel heard and seen, so thank you for that.

Speaker 2:
46:07

Well, that means a lot. The reason why I care about this community is because you deserve it, whether you're able to tell yourself that or not.

Speaker 1:
46:17

Right.

Speaker 2:
46:19

And from my perspective, it's truly an honor to be able to journey with people, whether they're feeling hopeless or full of hope. But regardless of where you happen to be in the moment, you deserve that community, you deserve that connection and you deserve to see and experience the love and acceptance that you deserve yeah, absolutely so well said Until next time, InnoMatterA, continue advocating for you and for those that you love.